 Poster: A snowHead
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Passing the Savoie Carbon place outside Moutiers, I don't think they can claim to be an idylic village spoiled by skiers going up the valley?
I guess a fair few people around Moutiers have also prospered nicely as a result
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, Take a visit and see for yourself. (Preferably in the Summer) Even without skiing the valley would be a busy area. Carbonne Savoie have just announced an expansion of their activities and each town through the valley is a thriving economy, best demonstrated by the number of new non ski related buildings.
Aime, in particular in the last 4 years has seen great improvements to it's infrastructure and street scenes, with many of the old buildings being refurbished.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| It's like some sort of transplanted urban nightmare. |
No it's not. Take a look at some of the photos in the relevant snow report threads (because you haven't skied there for some time so have no basis for making that claim) to see just how unlike an urban nightmare it is.  |
Sounds like it's got even worse. The last time I was in Arc 1600 the big blot was the underground carpark (there was a similar one at Belle Plagne).
These things, and everything else associated with urban solutions transplanted to very fragile mountain environments, are inappropriate. We have to produce far more benign solutions, because the Alps are being choked to death (I have a copy of Geographical magazine from 1987 predicting this, with a front cover shot of a pollution haze enveloping magnificent Alpine peaks).
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The last time I was in Arc 1600 the big blot was the underground carpark |
So much of a big blot that I don't even know where it is! Just how long ago was that?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Take the train, or ski elsewhere. The roads clearly can't cope. That whole area of France is becoming a choked disaster.
When I first skied Val, Les Arcs, Tignes etc. from the late 1960s it wasn't the megalopolis it's turned into. It's like some sort of transplanted urban nightmare. I think it was pistehors who reported amazing levels of air pollution in Tignes due to ski buses.
Too much greed, development, and lack of concern for people down the valley who have to suffer this air poison and noise |
David Goldsmith, the corollary of what you seem to have in mind (or perhaps it is the object itself) is that a lot of skiers will be priced out of the market until it shrinks back to its 1960s level. Either you're happy to transport / house / feed and otherwise supply millions of people in the mountains or you are not. All else is tinkering (though not necessarily unworthy).
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| laundryman wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, the corollary of what you seem to have in mind (or perhaps it is the object itself) is that a lot of skiers will be priced out of the market until it shrinks back to its 1960s level. |
Exactly right. It's mass market skiing he doesn't like. Keep the proles out, eh?
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To be fair David Goldsmith's concern was over development. My oberservation is that Tarentaise has indeed been expanded significantly in recent years as one can judge it by the number of SH bought properties there. On the whole I have to say the valley still retains its charm and in the original setting.
Some of the facilities are not allowed to expanded concurrently and that may be a good thing as they can act as a brake to the further development. The roads in partcular is a good example. But as I have posted earlier the roads are fine if one travel on days other than Saturady. I have been visiting Tarentaise regularly and my earliest visit was more than 22 years ago. I was pleasantly surprised by the main road N90 was still pretty quiet and relatively traffic free in Christmas 04 and New years 05 and I could strike any resort at will. Judging the development of the valley based on the traffic condition on Saturady alone would not be a fair assessment. There no denial that the Saturday traffic is among the worst one can find in France in winter, possibly beaten only by the summer condition in South of France.
Tarentaise Valley has a substantial infrastructure in the biggest skiing domain in the world. Even its third largest area Tignes/Val D, Escape Killy with 300 km linked piste, is larger than many big resorts of other countries. Tarentaise needs a sizeable population to service it and on that count I think the French hasn't got it all wrong.
I drove through the area on motor bike and cars also in summer when the Petit St Bernard pass ( and so the road beyond Tignes/Val D) is open. I would not say the valley is developed at all once I am not in or around a skiing resort.
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saikee, we had the situation in La Rosiere where the lift owners set certain conditions on the commune in order to maximise their investment, they wanted development to go ahead to 14,500 beds per week in winter. The regional government stopped this by refusing to upgrade the RN90 to handle that amount of traffic, citing cost as their main issue. So we're in the lucky position of having nice new lifts with massive upload capacity and a limit of 10,000 beds per week in winter, only just up from the 8,500 we used to have. Contrast that with Ste Foy where over 2 years, beds per week went from 1,500 per week to 5,000 you've only got to go there to see how a super little village has been turned into something else. saikee, is quite right away from the main resorts, there is hardly any change at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, the corollary of what you seem to have in mind (or perhaps it is the object itself) is that a lot of skiers will be priced out of the market until it shrinks back to its 1960s level. |
Exactly right. It's mass market skiing he doesn't like. Keep the proles out, eh? |
Rob, given your strictures on 'modern journalism' and its woes, you're not setting a shining example.
I've never expressed those views and don't hold them!
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David Goldsmith, the relevant quote, and what I was agreeing with, is "the corollary of what you seem to have in mind". That doesn't imply a selfish motivation on your part, perhaps just a thoughtless one? I make no pretense to be a journalist, so I won't hold myself up as a shining example.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That's a cop-out.
And all that stuff from laundryman is nothing I've expressed at all.
What I'm trying to plead is that 2h 45min from Arc 1800 to Moutiers is a reflection of an environment, a transport system and an urbanisation of the Alps that is deplorable. It's quite unfair to characterise me via views I simply don't hold.
Whether or not it's journalism, it's crap.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
And all that stuff from laundryman is nothing I've expressed at all.
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Agreed. It's a corollary of what you've expressed. Would you like a definition of the word?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It's a corollary of what you've expressed. |
No it isn't. You've used his ... err ... so-called ... corollary ... and spinned it up with your own apparent prejudices of where I'm at.
And you have the audacity to criticise sensationalist journalism?!
I'm all for people, from all walks of life, enjoying the mountains at reasonable cost. Just for the record.
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, just keep your 1960's vision of what skiing should be and leave us that still ski to get on with it, enjoy ourselves and leave enough time for our journeys and go back to the ski club site that I left because of your abraisive style
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I'm all for people, from all walks of life, enjoying the mountains at reasonable cost. Just for the record. |
Do you have any "benign solutions" in mind for enabling that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Best not to mention EdenArc then. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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erica2004, Actually all been quiet on that front for a while. When are they due to start work 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith,
There are SH who earn a leving from the Valley, have bought properties there, spend a significant time there and will have good knowledge of Tarentaise. Any slight inaccuracy will be reponded by a ton of bricks coming down on the poster.
I think the answer will be apparent if one travels on any day other than Saturday on the N90 road between Albertville to Tignes.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| erica2004, Actually all been quiet on that front for a while. When are they due to start work |
We had a presentation from Intrawest at our co-prop meeting at the New Year (the development will take place a little bit further up the hill from us, so they have been keeping us informed). It's still going ahead, but reading between the lines they are going to slow the timetable a bit because of the likely fall in demand due to uncertainty in property markets in Europe. I think ground-breaking is due this summer.
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1950 works superbly well with the underground car park and the whole development appears to be well thought out. I just kept expecting one of those big white balls to roll around a corner....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| saikee wrote: |
| I think the answer will be apparent if one travels on any day other than Saturday on the N90 road between Albertville to Tignes. |
That's right, and Saturdays outside of the school holidays are not much or an issue either. It's just the vacances scolaire crowds that are a problem, as they are everywhere else. But this reality doesn't suit DG's personal preference for the skiing world so he just focuses on the traffic problems for 4 or 6 days of the season ignoring everything else.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
watching the euro rate like a hawk  . |
Yup, sounds like foundations are done if you've been asked for another 20%. When we were planning our payments we thought the exchange rate would go against us so bought a 12-month forward contract for the Euros. Saved us about £8K on the total purchase price.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Similar week, few years ago saw us have a 7hr Tignes to Lyon transfer. Holiday week to the Tarentasie would ALWAYS see us do Sunday transfers (to La Ros of course) |
In the late 1980's, my parents took me to val D'Isere at half-term week. That was prior to the new roads/motorway built for the Olympics later on. Living in Toulouse, we left on the friday and did an overnight stay in Annecy with the intention to be in resort early on Saturday a.m. and ski at least the saturday afternoon. Left Annecy a 7.30 am....arrived in Val D'Isere....at 4.30 pm!
That was 9 hours to travel 130km....
So road congestion on busy staurdays is not exactly news.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Contrast that with Ste Foy where over 2 years, beds per week went from 1,500 per week to 5,000 you've only got to go there to see how a super little village has been turned into something else.
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I would just like to say that Ste Foy is still a super little village and am glad we chose Ste Foy over La Rosiere when we were looking to purchase 6 years ago. It has grown alot over the last six years but every time we visit the slopes are just as empty!
The longest it has taken us to Moutiers is 4 hours a few years ago when Christmas and New Year fell on a Saturday and the whole Tarentaise was on a Sunday change over.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Similar week, few years ago saw us have a 7hr Tignes to Lyon transfer
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People simply don't bargain for how ghastly the "vacances scolaire" transfer days are - and last weekend the weather was perfect. Add in some snow and/or fog..... and the drivers who haven't practised with their snowchains....
Driving to or from those resorts on those Saturdays requires very careful planning in advance and a willingness to go extremely early, or extremely late. That's why we left on Friday last week.
It defeats me why so many French cars you see on the roads on those days don't seem to have kids they can't all be teachers.
A number of people came onto Snowheads towards the end of last year looking for advice about how to plan their trip down. I recall the lady who was initially unwilling to take her 4 year old (!) out of school a day early. I think we persuaded her; I was wondering about them, and other families, and hoping it was going well, as we were driving back last week. If you have to go at half term, and have decided against taking the kids out of school, then you have to think of a better way than driving down at the same time as everybody else.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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OK, I am going to be heading up to Les Arcs at Easter (Saturday 22nd March - return 29th March). Is this generally as bad as the half term week? I am going to had a 5 and 7 year old inthe car. I need to know what to plan for.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ringingmaster, Short answer, no! Most of the UK appears to have only a long weekend for Easter hols so I guess it will be quieter than usual. Last year I thought Easter was about as busy as Christmas which was relatively quiet when compared to next week 
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I hadn't appreciated that the Easter holidays were unusual this year. Our kids have got that Easter week off and we are driving to Les Arcs for their (not our) first skiing holiday. I did wonder why there was a lot of accommodation available at reasonable prices.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ringingmaster, Full holidays in Wales over Easter so it is going to be very split so shouldn't be that bad on the roads
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All the action with a significant French component seems to focus on New Year and the four Feb/March weeks of "vacances scolaires". Other Saturdays can be busy, with some holdups if weather is bad, but no comparison. We drove up to Val Thorens for a day one Saturday last April, because we needed to be high with the tropical temperatures. The traffic was very busy, but kept moving, we had a great day and didn't regret going. But on any Saturday, if catching a plane, I would aim to allow at least 1.5 hours longer than getting to Geneva (or maybe other airports, but I don't have much experience of the others) than on, say, a Tuesday which is my normal day for Geneva. If people can choose Sunday transfers everything becomes easier, and you have that second Saturday of quiet, transfer day, skiing on the slopes.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ........ Easiest way to avoid the Saturday traffic is to travel on another day of the week if you can, but if not leave your resort very early or late. |
I agree, but even then there's no guarantee. Recently, getting down the hill from CV1850 to Moutiers, I left at noon on a Sunday. A simple, and on paper at least, a 30 minute journey, took me well over 1 hr 15mins. The roads were snow and ice clear, the delay was caused by just two vehicles. No way to pass until they turned off half down. It would have taken even longer if they hadn't. There was then an accident just before Albertville, a further delay. Fortunately, I had all day and easily made up the time. I only had to get to Calais that day. I can imagine it getting very stressfull in a delayed dash to Geneva!
Tour company transfer buses usually tend to try and bail out of resorts very early in the morning even for mid afternoon flights. Trick is be earlier than them and the rest of the lemmings, forego the civilised breakfast or have a evening flight time. When you hit major route bottlenecks, like Moutiers add in winer weather, odd accident, it all adds to the uncertainty. Hey ho...
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FAQ
