I've not been there for a very long time but clearly remember the signs indicating it was only for very good skiers. The snow was crap; I went down in the chair! But there is surely no doubt about whether a run is closed. It says so, perhaps in several languages! To suggest that if it says closed, but you can get round the end of the netting, it's only a little bit closed, so that people can choose to take "personal risk" sounds unlikely to me. Closed runs are by no means always closed off by wall to wall netting.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Origen wrote:
I've not been there for a very long time but clearly remember the signs indicating it was only for very good skiers. The snow was crap; I went down in the chair! But there is surely no doubt about whether a run is closed. It says so, perhaps in several languages! To suggest that if it says closed, but you can get round the end of the netting, it's only a little bit closed, so that people can choose to take "personal risk" sounds unlikely to me. Closed runs are by no means always closed off by wall to wall netting.
I'm not talking about its official status but how it's perceived.
In my experience it either has no banner across the top (great snow conditions). Or a banner warning that the conditions are difficult. Or a closed sign with incomplete netting and loads of people going around the netting. Or a closed sign with the netting going all the way across.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
And you are suggesting that sometimes when it says "closed" it's not REALLY that absolutely closed, and that people are being invited to make up their own minds?
And you are suggesting that sometimes when it says "closed" it's not REALLY that absolutely closed, and that people are being invited to make up their own minds?
I don't buy that. No means No.
Again - as I've said - I'm not talking about the official status.
But the simple fact is - there are many runs which, when closed, still have large numbers of people who choose to disregard the sign and go down. And the piste monitors don't interfere.
So if you're used to this situation - it may not be obvious that it's now much more dangerous than it was all the other times you went down and it was "closed".
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes, if you're accustomed to skiing closed runs because you think they're really only a little bit closed, and getting away with it, you might ski one on a bad day and die. Yes, I agree.
There are only two ways to get to the top of the wall. Up the lift above the wall which would have given a perfect view of conditions or up a lift from the Fornet bowl in which all the runs were scraped/icy when we were there two weeks ago and there have been more rain/ freeze events and no fresh snow since then.
What was he thinking?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@DJL, there’s something about these famous runs that people put on a “list” - if you’re only there for a week a year then I guess the temptation is to give it a go. I probably ski that run once or twice a season and almost invariably because someone I’m with wants to tick it off - I rarely choose to ski it as it’s often not in great nick and there’s better steep stuff not far away that has less likelihood of having falling bodies/skis/boards rattling round my head.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I think the phrase 'Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize' applies here.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@andy from embsay, I think you’re probably right.
We were over there on Tue 23 Jan, 3 days after (the last) fresh snow so conditions probably ideal. Daughter’s boyfriend wanted to tick it and I was carded to do it with him. When we got to the top of the Ripaille drag lifts we could see (from the lack of carnage) that it was eminently skiable but we were also surprised the run to Champéry (Grand Paradis) was open so changed plans and did that instead. 25% nice red run, 75% road through the woods, calm, quiet, deserted. I think we ended up with the best of the deal
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Moorzee10 wrote:
... I was stood above [the Swiss wall] in early Jan in perfect conditions and watched many accomplished skiers struggle down it. In my opinion, when open, this piste is an ego flex and one for the absolute specialists otherwise you are literally playing roulette.
The point isn't that the thing is absolutely difficult as you suggest (it's not), it's that the safety of the line is entirely dependent upon slope condition.
Perhaps the patrol knew that the risk of serious injury was high and closed it to prevent serious injury and death. Interfering with natural selection again: it's their job.
Obviously we can't know about this incident, but list-tickers don't care about slope condition, they just need a tick. Mostly rope-duckers will get away with an unpleasant, scary and probably ungainly descent. Sometimes they won't. I was lucky to learn about snow condition early, but I think many people don't really understand even the effect of the sun, or perhaps the tickers simply can't care.
I think you mean Russian Roulette, where you lose your life, not your money. It's not roulette at all, a metaphor not literal.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
frejul wrote:
Origen wrote:
And you are suggesting that sometimes when it says "closed" it's not REALLY that absolutely closed, and that people are being invited to make up their own minds?
I don't buy that. No means No.
Again - as I've said - I'm not talking about the official status.
But the simple fact is - there are many runs which, when closed, still have large numbers of people who choose to disregard the sign and go down. And the piste monitors don't interfere.
So if you're used to this situation - it may not be obvious that it's now much more dangerous than it was all the other times you went down and it was "closed".
You are right …. There seems to be three status of run
1. ‘Open’… they may also have some advisory eg ‘ice’ or ‘thin snow’
2. ‘Closed but by all means have a go if you fancy it’ - as marked by netting that kind of blocks the entrance
3.’Closed Closed’ - as marked by a net that goes all the way across and you’d have to try hard to get round it.
Authorities can then maintain 2 and 3 are closed as far as any finger pointing goes.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
A piste with a "closed" sign, regardless of the state of the netting, is absolutely not inviting people to have a go if they fancy it. Two possibilities - it's either open (perhaps with an advisory) or closed. Try arguing with an insurance company that if you could passed a closed sign and skirted round the netting that "kind of blocks the entrance" then you were not skiing against local advice.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Look at this Dutch muppet skiing it. He’s utterly hopeless but still managed to get down. But that’s in good chalky snow conditions. Completely different kettle of fish if it’s ice
Think this demonstrates the importance of thinking about conditions. Because the piste itself doesn't change it's easy to fall into the trap of "done this before, no problem." But conditions make such a huge difference. I've skied the swiss wall a few times and it's ranged from wondering what all the fuss was about (because the snow was relatively fresh and had filled in a lot of the moguls, which were also soft and forgiving) to having to concentrate quite hard later in the season and without the benefit of recent snowfall. I've also seen a run in L2A that would be very benign under most conditions closed because of ice and people falling and being unable to arrest themselves. Just because it is a piste doesn't mean it can't vary a lot in difficulty but it's easy to see why people do make errors of judgement. RIP to the chap, very sad.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimummk wrote:
I hope he doesn't have family that have to live with the consequences of his bravado
This was my immediate thoughts. Imagine being that kid that has to say, yeah my dad died because he did something very stupid.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
Look at this Dutch muppet skiing it. He’s utterly hopeless but still managed to get down. But that’s in good chalky snow conditions. Completely different kettle of fish if it’s ice
Completely out of his depth there - dangerously so for such good conditions... Can't believe he posted it online! Wonder if he was pressured into it or whether he wanted a tale to tell?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Thomasski, I initially thought "why the hell would you post that as if you're proud" but then I decided to watch some of the other videos, there's one from Les Mens where he's sporting such horrific goggle tan that he's clearly an idiot.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I am in avoriaz and arrived at the wall just after this happened. The piste had a net right across. Normally if it’s closed the net is most of the way accross, allowing people to slip round the edge based on their personal decision I guess. However this time it was right up the slope on either side.
Maybe if it was just after the accident, someone had then decided to make it very clear that it was closed, and pulled the netting further across?
As apparently netting mainly across and a closed sign is not clearly closed.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Orange200 wrote:
johnybloggs wrote:
I am in avoriaz and arrived at the wall just after this happened. The piste had a net right across. Normally if it’s closed the net is most of the way accross, allowing people to slip round the edge based on their personal decision I guess. However this time it was right up the slope on either side.
Maybe if it was just after the accident, someone had then decided to make it very clear that it was closed, and pulled the netting further across?
As apparently netting mainly across and a closed sign is not clearly closed.
Was out there the week before and even then it was VERY firmly closed on Wednesday. We took the chair up, spotting one very serious accident being attended to, a couple of more minor ones where people might have gotten away with it or might have needed rescue, and one boarder lose and edge and semi-ragdoll 100m, coming cm from taking out a group of skiers (who'd rarher stupidly given the run/conditions) all stopped in the same spot).
Maybe if it was just after the accident, someone had then decided to make it very clear that it was closed, and pulled the netting further across?
As apparently netting mainly across and a closed sign is not clearly closed.
The Robin Thicke approach to closed pistes, a world where no means maybe and closed means be careful.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Moorzee10 wrote:
In my opinion, when open, this piste is an ego flex and one for the absolute specialists otherwise you are literally playing roulette
Agree with this on the whole - I've skied it and others like it several times (eg Le Tunnel in AD) in my yoof and (conditions / technique aside) fitness and strength for bodyweight is key. . .to say I've ever truly enjoyed skiing / surviving them intact would be a lie; the majority of 1 week per year perma-intermediates are absolutely on there for bragging rights in the bar and nothing else; and the difference between average bumps on squeaky snow and 2M troughs on an ice field can make the same run a totally different animal.
Personally, don't really understand who these lift served runs are actually catered 'for' as they prove nothing and even for a pro can hardly be labelled enjoyable as skier created moguls are an artificial concept in the first place; presumably why parks (that are usually emptier and better controlled) have become more relevant in recent decades.
Runs of this type are used simply as a marketing tool for the resort IMO (look how steep and scary I am) and perhaps should be better controlled / played down rather than put on a pedestal; surviving the Swiss Wall does not make you a better skier IMO - sad times and thoughts to the family of a chap who made a poor decision on the day . .
After all it is free
After all it is free
I've skied it, big bumps but chalky snow....and I thought "is that really all it is?"
However:
No way would I duck a rope there!
I can absolutely see that if it was hard and icy it could be BAD
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It would be a dull world if all pistes were the same. Even for a perma intermediate like myself having runs like this can add interest to a days skiing though I would probably avoid it these days in the interest of my knees.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
it's easy to see why people do make errors of judgement
we've no doubt all done that - realised when it was too late that we were not going to enjoy this run, or taken someone on a run which was too difficult for them to enjoy. But skiing a closed piste isn't an "error of judgement" any more than killing someone because you're driving 20 mph over the speed limit is an error of judgement.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Belch, hmmm, I have, despite my comments above, had some excellent skiing down the wall, including, inter alia, on a monoski (for a bet) and on snowblades (silly seasonnaires race rules). My brother skied it just after it opened, so absent bumps, in 15cms of powder.
To an extent, there is degree of competitive marketing, but there is in any of this stuff.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And surely the discussion about the "point" of these pistes is completely separate from the discussion about how wise - or otherwise - it is to ski them when they are closed?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Back in the 1980s, I recall the SW being described as "easily covered in a single fall". The Times picture captioned it as a 56% slope or 30 degrees. The Schilthorn is 75%, or 37 degrees. The difference is that the Schilthorn gets hard but not sheet ice - yet - and often is good grippy snow. Muerren hasn't opened the steeper slope, No 9 Diretissima at 88%/41 degrees, this season.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It’s been open all week either side of this incident. Or certainly most of the week. My guess is it was “closed” with a single sign initially and they planned to open it later in the day once the sun had softened things a bit. Netting more than likely only appeared once rescue operation was in progress. And it was a significant operation with 2 helis, multiple pisteurs etc (we were in the area at the time).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Not that it would matter - closed is closed
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Closed does indeed mean closed, and not “have a go based on your own judgement”. I have had holiday heros appearing on a race training track. With kids at very high speeds on race GS skis. And once on an actual racecourse during a race. Extremely dangerous for all concerned especially the atheletes. Don’t be a dick. If is says it is closed, you can’t ski it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
zikomo wrote:
And once on an actual racecourse during a race.
Have had this happen multiple times. Even with multiple signs and layers of netting someone always gets tangled up in the innermost net, they have gone round the other nets before this.
Then there are tourers who zig-zag up the race piste while it is in use.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
In my opinion, when open, this piste is an ego flex and one for the absolute specialists otherwise you are literally playing roulette.
I think you are literally playing pinball.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dashed wrote:
It’s been open all week either side of this incident. Or certainly most of the week. My guess is it was “closed” with a single sign initially and they planned to open it later in the day once the sun had softened things a bit. Netting more than likely only appeared once rescue operation was in progress. And it was a significant operation with 2 helis, multiple pisteurs etc (we were in the area at the time).
This puts a different perspective on things.
Again putting aside the official status (yes "closed" is "closed" - nobody should be skiing it) - in terms of understanding someone's choices - there's a huge difference between clambering around netting that is completely blocking the entrance to a deserted run vs following dozens of others (including perhaps some kids) as they ignore a single closed sign.
Remember this is a piste where - after you clear the brow at the start (you can't see what's going on until you do) - you can see the whole run to the bottom. You would be able to see if their was a race (they do have fun ones there!), poor snow cover, a rescue in progress, a piste machine in operation (unlikely there) etc. Instead, they may well have seen dozens of folk weaving their way down - including some of moderate ability. Indeed, they may have seen this on the way up on the chairlift which gives you a view of the whole run.
Again - yes - "closed" is closed" - nobody should be skiing it in this situation. But in terms of trying to understand someone's decision making - this is all highly relevant.
The person who lost their life could have family and friends reading this thread. Or the media could pick up on the thread. So making assumptions here about the circumstances in which they made their decision could have an impact.
In my opinion, when open, this piste is an ego flex and one for the absolute specialists otherwise you are literally playing roulette.
I think you are literally playing pinball.
When it's open and the snow is good - it's nothing like routlette or pinball. It's a bunch of moguls - so hard work and tiring - similar to Mort Fort / Tortin.
With soft snow - you fall and generally get stuck wedged into a big fluffy mogul and have to spend 10 minutes trying to reinsert yourself into a ski.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@frejul, “race”? Really?
After all it is free
After all it is free
frejul wrote:
The person who lost their life could have family and friends reading this thread. Or the media could pick up on the thread. So making assumptions here about the circumstances in which they made their decision could have an impact.
Agreed, I said similar regarding the avalanche thread a few weeks back...but all reporting has been consistent that it was closed, so it's not really an assumption. So while the extent of netting may have had a bearing on the decision making, the fact remains that it was a closed run.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Just to be clear - I’m guessing on the sign versus netting mechanism for closing the piste but it was open every other time I passed it last week. The day of the incident was no better or worse conditions than earlier or later in the week in the area so I was surprised to hear the run was closed at the time of the accident and not just closed after to facilitate rescue.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I had forgotten my encounter with this beast. Many years ago staying in Chatel myself and mate approached the top of the wall. Quite clearly there was rope and a sign, from memory it read "passage interdite". We both took this to mean closed.
That evening in the chalet there was a full blown argument, several insisting that only the "tiny" bit behind the rope was actually closed. I should add that mate and I went down on the chair.
I think we are in a time where too many people have to tick the list, sadly this didn't work well in this instance. Assuming the two people with the deceased were friends, I can not imagine what their world is like at the moment.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
