 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Salmon Fishing in the Yemen
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rayscoops, …it all seems a triumph of lack of understanding trumping reality.
The snow for the Winter Olympics is proving problematic due to climate change.
So….
Let’s build a putatively zero carbon city which will provide an authentic reproduction of Alpine settings.
Even saying it makes me wince.
The buildings in Dubai have been designed without thought to the sewage system. Hundreds of lorries extract human waste from the Dubai towers every day.
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/52204/is-the-sewage-from-the-burj-khalifa-transported-away-by-trucks
The development of the seemingly futuristic islands in Dubai have created huge environmental damage, are bankrupt and are sinking into the sea, let alone being prone to sea level increase:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/feb/13/not-end-the-world-return-dubai-ultimate-folly
https://www.environmentandsociety.org/tools/keywords/dubai-palm-islands
None of these mega developments seem to do proper environmental audits which look at the totality of building and use. The environmental impact of building massive artificial mountains (just repeat that phrase to try to make it seem anything other than entirely crazy) is simply huge. And there’s still all of the environmental costs of people travelling to events, which obtains wherever the event is held, which runs a coach and horses through ‘zero carbon’ false labelling. The energy costs of creating low temps in that kind of environment are huge, and rather than using the natural processes of the planet, will be churning out more thermal energy even if they use green energy for the refrigeration.
And the overwhelming truth is that the lax environmental laws and the very low enforcement and transparency of previous projects of this type means that the promises of low impact end up being entirely empty.
It’s crazy. It should not happen. It’s doing exactly what we should NOT do to create a sustainable place to live in the universe.
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@valais2, Trojena, the integrated mountain resort, is being developed at 2500 m in existing mountains.
I am struggling to get my mind around the temperatures at that elevation in Saudi as it seems to be above zero in winter so unless humidity is below 40% snow making will be tricky.
I am sure there are lessons learned from developments in the region over the last 30 years, but NEOM does seem to be happening.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Much like the legal position of "handling stolen goods" being looked apon as more serious than the act of stealing (created demand) then customers of things like this must be treated with suspicioun.
A little like the excuse of football building vast stadia around the world for each world cup event, who answers for that waste every four years ? Under whose name is that being carried out ? When will that stop ?
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If you build it, and spread enough money about, they will come.
When I was involved in such things, they were affectionately known as 'Fuck you Projects' each one another submission in the regions international pissing contest of who's got the most. There were literally loops to nowhere on the Dubai Metro so they could say it was the longest.
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The apres ski is likely to be a bit muted though …
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| sheffskibod wrote: |
| The apres ski is likely to be a bit muted though … |
Why ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This sort of extreme Disnification just seems to strengthen our appreciation of more local natural environments. It makes our own protected places even more important to wellbeing and understanding.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| sheffskibod wrote: |
| The apres ski is likely to be a bit muted though … |
Why ? |
Err. It’s in Saudi Arabia …
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| sheffskibod wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
| sheffskibod wrote: |
| The apres ski is likely to be a bit muted though … |
Why ? |
Err. It’s in Saudi Arabia … |
I believe it will be a special administration region (a country in a country) and serve alcohol. Even the early associated developments, surprisingly, may well be serving alcohol.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rayscoops, ...absolutely, and I am sure you have looked at the website reference you give....and the geology of the fragile sedementary rocks is unsuitable for purpose. The mountains in that region have their own savage beauty and frail ecosystem, as Kim Philby's father knew well, being the first Westerner to map and document the area.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S101836472030392X
they are intending vast amounts of artificial mountain construction work - see the images 'trojena';
https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/trojena
I think people have been drinking of sniffing something. Or being induced in a specific way. The Olympic Committee obviously want snow sure resorts and I assume they have been promised that. That's entirely reasonable for them to try to secure. What is NOT reasonable is knowing that the snow sure nature of the winter Olympics is under threat and therefore engaging in activities and events WHICH WILL MAKE THAT FAR WORSE (SHOUTY CAPS). Frankly bizarre - even without considering the labour issues which were there with Qatar but not addressed sufficiently.
i will be encouraging PQs to be asked about this.
Why not think hard about an alternative model for staging the games? For example, no curling athlete also does bob sleigh or GS. You could distribute the events around the world, and with communication technology have an excellent games. With REDUCED environmental impact. Seriously...hands up on here who will be going to Saudi Arabia for the games? And will the promised post-games mass use of the facilities be actually a reality - in 2033 'oh I'm just off to Saudi for half term skiing?'. It's dangerous nonsense.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 26-02-23 14:14; edited 2 times in total
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Ah you are forgetting the Saudi people’s great love of winter sport and the IOC’s of their money.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ster, ...yep.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Current climate (pun intended) it would be far more impressive if they made the sport fit existing infrastructure 
Marathon and road cycling, two decent examples.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@valais2, it is the Asian winter games, not the Winter Olympics and I am sure the best engineers in the world will make adequate provision for dealing with the conditions ... its what they do. It looks fantastic though with natural topography at grade slopes and feeder elevated slopes (a bit like ski jumps) linking into the natural slopes. Agreed the impact appears huge when you look at the resort itself in isolation, but zoom out and Trojena is a tiny part of a vast area that remains untouched.
and @ski3, there will be 4 different seasonal uses through out the entire year, with one quarter being for high-altitude training, Adventure triathlon, Yoga retreat, Mountain biking, Paragliding.
Putting aside whether one considers such a development should be undertaken, the plan is for it to be used 12 months a year with differing uses on a quarterly basis so its not just a ski resort.
I am keeping an open mind on it because it seems so fanciful to build a ski resort in Saudi, but the skiing is just 3 months of the year with other activities all year round.
Whether morally right or wrong, it's pretty impressive.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rayscoops, ...sorry....you are entirely right and I shouldn't have rushed so much in my replies to your post. Indeed it is the Olympic Committee of Asia and not the IOC...
OCA:
The Olympic Council Of Asia (OCA) is an independent non-governmental no-for-profit international Asian sport organization for unlimited duration recognized by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), the Association of National Olympic Committee (ANOC) and the 45 member Asian National Olympic Committee (NOCs).
47 events planned - as I mentioned, a new model of distributed games using existing infrastructure should be considered - with benefit to a larger number of nations. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ski_areas_and_resorts_in_Asia
Here's one rendering of the scale of the development planned - and note the impact of concrete production (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-most-destructive-material-on-earth)
quote:
After water, concrete is the most widely used substance on Earth. If the cement industry were a country, it would be the third largest carbon dioxide emitter in the world with up to 2.8bn tonnes, surpassed only by China and the US.
here's the rendering
https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2022/10/trojena-saudi-ski-resort-neom-asian-winter-games-zaha-hadid-unstudio-2_dezeen_1704_hero_7.jpg
The concrete commitments of the proposed development are HUGE.
as for it being only a small area of the Sarawat mountains, questions arise about highways, transport etc, waste production, water (radical desalination and salt reclamation is mooted). I am aware that this is part of an ambitious plan to transform the area (and to provide living space for those coastal areas and populations threatened by rising sea levels and rising temperatures?), and it's clear that all ecosystems are dynamic and change over time, but there's already novel flora and important fauna there, despite the appearance of aridity and wilderness:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95450-4
Note this:
Geographically speaking, Trojena is located about 30 miles (50km) from the coast and is close to the border of Jordan. While the majority of Saudi Arabia is a desert climate, the southwestern part is semi-arid. But it’s still not the climate you would expect for a ski area. Trojena is in a mountainous region at 4,900 to 8,500 ft (1500 to 2600 m) altitude; the area is dry and temperatures below the freezing point are rare, therefore snowfall is minimal.
The International Ski Federation (FIS) was apparently not aware of the decision. Michel Vion stated on Tuesday they were surprised by the appointment. He did stress that FIS did not have to be notified of the appointments but it is customary.
There's also a market side. Snowbrains quoting Wall Street Journal:
Further criticism has come from human rights activists with regard to the displacement of the nomadic population in the area. The Howeitat tribe has been forcibly removed from the area of the Neom project. The Wall Street Journal estimated that up to an additional 20,000 people could be forcibly removed from the area to make room for the project.
There's a lot to this and a lot more than meets the eye.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@valais2, yip it's a lot of work, a lot of infrastructure and a lot of resources.
Saudi is doing in 20 years what western countries have done in 200 years so it does look a bit 'in your face' when it is accelerated in this manner.
I don't necessarily agree with it but I am certainly impressed by it, the vision that was required to get it to where it is now together with all the other NEOM projects, the coastal projects and what is going on on Riyadh and elsewhere.
Phenomenal really.
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@rayscoops,
Impressed by the vision.
Whereas I am depressed by the lack of foresight.
Funny old world.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| motdoc wrote: |
@rayscoops,
Impressed by the vision.
Whereas I am depressed by the lack of foresight.
Funny old world. |
It's quite interesting to see the Middle East states recognise they have to move on from oil & gas .. Dubai first, Qatar 2030 vision in 2008 and the Saudi 2030 vision in 2016
One could argue a lack of foresight for not starting sooner but it's all tied to the timing of the run down of oil & gas.
I am not seeing such foresight, vision or mission statements from else where in the world at the moment.
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@rayscoops, I'll rest it here but don't you think that massive infrastructure to support skiing in the Sarawat Mountains might be a hint that the overall plan is missing the integrity of some of the details? Action in this case is speaking a bit more loudly than words or statements of intention. If we really are thinking in an evidence-based way about economies and leisure of the future, then development of skiing there - with further global warming and conflict over water demands and preservation of environment - might not be consisent with genuine commitment to preserving the biosphere. It's difficult just to veiw this specific as some unfortunate inconsistency in the overall strategy, since building such facilities involves a lot of of high level decision making.
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@valais2, yes I agree, skiing seems a bit strange but it will be a development that will have use 12 months a year with skiing just 3 months of that and snow predominantly produced by cannons, not dissimilar to lower altitude resorts elsewhere in the world.
Also being close to the coast with the obvious use of renewable powered desalination plants and the construction of a fresh water lake, perhaps water won't be such and issue ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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really nice
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@snow2023,welcome to Snowheads…what’s your background and interests?….
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Some nice images and vids on the twitter account
It's rolling on and hotels staking their claim.
Do we think Basi be recognised there for an Iqama residents permit for ski instructor jobs ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rayscoops, the skier seems to be skiing uphill, so as about realistic as this whole scheme.
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@rayscoops, it's amazing what you can create with SFX these days. e.g. https://www.blue-bolt.com/showreel
My understanding was that he was struggling to find finance and investors.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ster wrote: |
| @rayscoops, the skier seems to be skiing uphill, so as about realistic as this whole scheme. |
Well it is certainly being built, no doubt about that
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@rayscoops, hmmm much more slowly than planned and without anchor tenants is what I read …
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rayscoops, hmmm much more slowly than planned and without anchor tenants is what I read …
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Classic 'scoops thread.
1. Raise a subject
2. Ask for others opinions while offering none of his own.
3. Proceed to argue the opposite to the majority. 
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FAQ
